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Cruor Registered User regular
September 20
I feel like DnD specifically is in a weird place when it comes to violence vs diplomacy, and a lot of that is due to the fanbase. I'm sure it's not a huge portion of the fanbase, but a very vocal portion of it is claiming DnD has "gone woke" or "is full of DEI" now because DnD is moving away from "these races are wholesale evil, and they're ok to kill whenever." They don't want to talk to orcs in the fantasy game because they wouldn't interact with a minority group in real life either.
The roots of DnD as a "pillage and loot the homes of these evil races" doesn't help. The main way that new players learn what DnD is is from older players who were indoctrinated into that way of thinking in older editions, and some of these older players really can't shake the pillage and loot mindset.
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webguy20 I spend too much time on the Internet Registered User regular
September 20 edited September 20
Cruor wrote: »
I feel like DnD specifically is in a weird place when it comes to violence vs diplomacy, and a lot of that is due to the fanbase. I'm sure it's not a huge portion of the fanbase, but a very vocal portion of it is claiming DnD has "gone woke" or "is full of DEI" now because DnD is moving away from "these races are wholesale evil, and they're ok to kill whenever." They don't want to talk to orcs in the fantasy game because they wouldn't interact with a minority group in real life either.
The roots of DnD as a "pillage and loot the homes of these evil races" doesn't help. The main way that new players learn what DnD is is from older players who were indoctrinated into that way of thinking in older editions, and some of these older players really can't shake the pillage and loot mindset.
My hope is that with a lot of the popular lets plays focusing on the RP aspect it’ll help shift the mindset. Even the murderhobo at my table has softened as the years have went on. He won’t stand for a lot of useless back and forth still, but he has shown amazing RP ability once he gave it a go. Some of our best moments over the years have included him. Note to be fair at least half of those moments involved violence, but it was incredibly well acted and thematic violence.
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Matev Cero Miedo Registered User regular
September 20
Yah, the 2 things about old D&D was it was initially conceived of as 'downtime' action between wargames where your general and/or their flunkies would go raid ruins for treasure to pay your units/upgrade your kit. This means that one, you're working with modified wargame rules and two, the goal isn't explicitly wholesale murder, but acquisition of wealth with as little danger as you can muster. (In fact, as I recall, fighting earned less XP than the gold you hauled out of the complex)
Over time, balance has shifted so that players have more and more advantages in combat to the point where it's the assumed mode of engagement, with treasure and it's acquisition almost as an afterthought. And lately it's further shifted to the game mostly being a framework for fantasy improv storytelling that happens to have a combat resolution system as it's main source of randomness.
"Go down, kick ass, and set yourselves up as gods, that's our Prime Directive!"
Hail Hydra
+3
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Quetzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User, Moderator mod
September 20
As long as the character sheet is 80% things to do in combat the game is going to keep being the same, or is at least going to encourage players to think about it in those terms.
You can break out of that, sure, and plenty of people have, but a D&D character is defined and differentiated by their combat ability - it's only natural to look at that as a solution to your problems.
+22
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Endless_Serpents Registered User regular
September 20
When gold is experience, and experience is survivability, delving is robbery, and that’s why the ideal game for old school D&D is Blades in the Dark.
+5
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Solar Registered User regular
September 20
You literally cannot play a non combat DnD character and that is not how a lot of games do things
+8
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Endless_Serpents Registered User regular
September 20
I’m not the first to think about this, but I think you can tell a lot about a game by where you look on your character sheet before your turn (or during it) for leverage. You’ve basically got your equipment games, your combat ability games, and your narrative trait games.
Are you the guy carrying the only torch? The guy that can hit two targets this turn? Or the Loose Cannon with a Heart of Gold?
I suppose in theory better games use a mix of these, but they definitely gravitate to one.
Can anyone think of a fourth type?
+1
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Quetzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User, Moderator mod
September 20
D&D also has effectively no mechanical model for harm other than being physically injured, which I think is notable.
Like, if a player fucks up a social roll or fails to pick a lock, I can give them social consequences, but that's all RP. At a certain point that needs to be backed up by violence, as that's the only mechanical communication.
+2
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Incenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
September 20
Part of the problem is that GMs typically have everything fight to the death, and there are often a lot of barriers to non-lethal attacks. Managing captives can also be rather tricky.
+7
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Polaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
September 20
Narrative consequences are also a form of harm, though. Just not mechanical harm.
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Endless_Serpents Registered User regular
September 20
Morale checks are at the heart of random encounter gaming, I find. They should be as standard as hit points really.
+3
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Endless_Serpents Registered User regular
September 20
You know what I agree with that Straightzi, but it’s also come to my attention that none of us want to read the core rules for official D&D ever again. There could be something on page 238 of the DM’s guide about giving folks disadvantage on Charisma checks if they don’t address the goblin king properly. I think a bigger problem with 5E1D&D2024/25 is more that if there is a rule, they’ve hidden it well enough no one uses it.
+9
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Solar Registered User regular
September 20
One thing I love in CofD is that there is a merit called Hardened
If you are a mortal and you don't have this merit, if you take any kind of damage in a fight you surrender or run. You have to spend a willpower on your turn to do anything else because someone just hit you and you are scared
I love that
+3
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Havelock2.0 What are you? Some kind of half-assed astronaut?Registered User regular
September 20
That reminds me of Dark Heresy. The Jaded talent helped you not lose your shit if you came across what would basically be a Tuesday in the Inquisition. They also had similar rules for being pinned during combat and having to roll willpower to try to get out of cover unless you had a corresponding talent. Because regular people would not normally do that.
You go in the cage, cage goes in the water, you go in the water. Shark's in the water, our shark.
+2
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Quetzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User, Moderator mod
September 20
Polaritie wrote: »
Narrative consequences are also a form of harm, though. Just not mechanical harm.
Sure. That's exactly what I said.
But what happens if someone no-sells it? What if you got a real Bartleby the Scrivener at the table, who isn't moved by the guard coming around the corner after they fail to pick a lock and wants to try again? What if a character refuses to stop talking after the Queen demands silence?
The correct answer of course may well be that you step away from the table and have a conversation there, because those are ultimately the actions of players, not characters. But the in game solution is to bring the truncheon down on their head, as that's the next step. There's not a mechanical way to put those characters in their place beyond threatening and ultimately enacting violence.
+13
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Speed Racer Scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratchRegistered User regular
September 20 edited September 20
We eventually reshaped how damage works in Eidolon to try and address this kind of thing
Damage doesn't represent the harm that you've endured, but basically the level of disadvantage you've attained in the narrative. As such there's 3 kinds of damage--physical, psychic, and metaphysical--that are all tracked by the same number
Characters effectively only have 4 "hit points," because they're structured more like strikes in baseball than traditional HP. each point is sturdier than the last, so you can lose your first point of damage from any meaningful negative consequence, anything from a slap in the face to getting publicly embarrassed to losing an important bet. Each successive point can only be lost by more severe consequences, until the last point can only be lost by something that a) could potentially kill you and b) would be dramatically appropriate if it killed you, with the GM being the person who decides what counts as dramatically appropriate
Speed Racer on
+3
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Endless_Serpents Registered User regular
September 20 edited September 20
Wait, it’s all come flooding back to me. You tell them to make a Dexterity saving throw!
—
You know, whenever I think about a particular consequence I can’t help but word it in my head like an Apocalypse World move first.
When the Queen bids you be silent and you refuse, roll + Hard.
On a 10+, you stand your ground and she gives you a moment to speak. Take +1 ongoing.
On a 7-9, choose one:
- She’ll listen, and take what you say onboard. But she has to call the guards, you’ve shown her up.
- She won’t listen, but others in the court will. You’ve still got a chance to back down after she raises her hand.
Regardless, take the condition: On Thin Ice until you apologise at a more appropriate time.
On a 6-, Sir Houndtrop stabs you in the back. It’s an excuse he’s been waiting for. The Queen claps.It just has a nice flow to it.
Endless_Serpents on
+1
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Cruor Registered User regular
September 20
Since DnD does use the "HP as abstraction of harm" rule, you could rule that bad enough social beatdowns cause HP damage. You would have to talk to your players beforehand to make sure that they were on board for something like that. It's not the most elegant solution but it's something that is at least supported by the rules as written.
Not that I would use DnD as the system for a game of mostly political intrigue. I could, but I'd rather just use a system that is better suited for it.
+2
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Havelock2.0 What are you? Some kind of half-assed astronaut?Registered User regular
September 20
I had to pull punches on my one shot WFRP game. Specifically during an interaction with a Witch Hunter who was plainclothes undercover, leaves the estate auction, and promptly comes back by kicking down the door in full gear.
Though it could have been worse. One of the characters noticed that she was wearing heavy boots under her dress so they figured something was up.
You go in the cage, cage goes in the water, you go in the water. Shark's in the water, our shark.
+3
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Havelock2.0 What are you? Some kind of half-assed astronaut?Registered User regular
September 20
I telegraphed it really hard too. She was the only one bidding on anything to do with Sigmar, and her false surname was Schmidt, which was also the surname of a pc and the false surname of the murderer who was there as well.
You go in the cage, cage goes in the water, you go in the water. Shark's in the water, our shark.
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Neveron HellValleySkyTree SwedenRegistered User regular
September 20
Cruor wrote: »
Since DnD does use the "HP as abstraction of harm" rule, you could rule that bad enough social beatdowns cause HP damage. You would have to talk to your players beforehand to make sure that they were on board for something like that. It's not the most elegant solution but it's something that is at least supported by the rules as written.
Not that I would use DnD as the system for a game of mostly political intrigue. I could, but I'd rather just use a system that is better suited for it.
A slight problem there is that while D&D nominally treats HP as some kind of abstraction of your luck or whatever (thus why the only blow that matters is the one that brings you from 1 to 0), in practice it's very much Meat Points and the entirety of the rules are around losing and regaining that Meat. It's Cure Wounds, after all, potions of healing, and any number of critters that do bonus Bad Stuff if they manage to scratch you with so much as 1hp of damage.
This is, perhaps, also part of the problem. Physical harm... kind of isn't? If someone stabs a knife in your gut, that's just adjusting your HP value (probably by, like, -6), there's no wounds, no actual physicality to the "physical" harm.
That HP loss can be caused by entirely non-physical, sometimes even illusory, means just underscores how it kind of doesn't even feel real.
This also means that there's not really any sense of danger beyond that last hit point, or even any permanence to any one instance of damage that can't just be healed away. A "squishy" Wizard of an appropriately high level will look at some kind of sawblade corridor trap and think "yeah, I can just tank that" and casually walk through while asking "so how much damage do I take?"
+11
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Solar Registered User regular
September 20 edited September 20
I'd say that the purpose of objective based social interaction isn't to deal hit points of social damage so I can defeat them without stabbing them. It's to get them to do stuff or see things in line with what I want
I don't want to KO the prince with social damage I want to persuade him that the chief minister is a traitor and for him to believe me because his sister, who he trusts, vouches for me. That's not social combat. Its game-able. But it's not combat.
Solar on
+2
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Rhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
September 20
Sometimes players are just not smelling what you're dropping
I'm two sessions into a murder mystery with three entertainers dead and a witness humming a tune constantly as her mind is shattered, and they're just coming round as a group to the idea that music might have something to do with it
It was fun seeing them blame the jilted lover for a while, though - very CSI, they thought they had the right guy right up to the second ad break when the third victim died, so now they're suspecting the priest who was arguing with the victim about the role of music in funereal proceedings the day before
[Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
+10
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asofyeun Registered User regular
September 20
hm, regarding alternative HP/harm systems, i remember reading some designer notes on the wound system in use (can't remember if it was Savage Worlds or Mutants & Masterminds)
they said that they did a statistical analysis and found that (under a set of assumptions about normal play), one character was almost guaranteed to die after a year or something. The same kind of thing where if you flip a coin long enough, eventually you'll get ten heads in a row. Wish I could find where I found that, though
I suppose the same thing happens in HP games, too, though, where on a long enough timescale, someone is just going to get crit and crit-fail into a grave because the dice hate them. That's what hero points are supposed to help prevent
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Rhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
September 20
One of my players is half-seriously considering that the murder is a Reverse Vampire after some dodgy knowledge rolls, and is asking the townsfolk if they've seen one
So now some confused peasants are imagining a monster who only comes out in the day and spits blood at you before turning into a great auk and running away
And everybody knows that Faeries draw power from belief...
[Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
+19
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Havelock2.0 What are you? Some kind of half-assed astronaut?Registered User regular
September 20
Oh no
You go in the cage, cage goes in the water, you go in the water. Shark's in the water, our shark.
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Maddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
September 20 edited September 20
Solar wrote: »
You literally cannot play a non combat DnD character and that is not how a lot of games do things
This basically gets to the heart of it I think, because D&D is fundamentally a combat system. It has skill checks bolted onto the side, but the primary way a player character interacts with the world is by altering somethings Hit Points. Usually lowering.
Every time talk goes to systems that could be jury rigged into D&D to facilitate styles of play that aren't primarily taking the pointy end of a sword and putting it into the soft bits of a goblin, my answer is invariably "There is a game that does what you're trying to do already"
Maddoc on
+5
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Albino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
September 20
Solar wrote: »
I'd say that the purpose of objective based social interaction isn't to deal hit points of social damage so I can defeat them without stabbing them. It's to get them to do stuff or see things in line with what I want
I don't want to KO the prince with social damage I want to persuade him that the chief minister is a traitor and for him to believe me because his sister, who he trusts, vouches for me. That's not social combat. Its game-able. But it's not combat.
Something I actually like in Infinity (and Exalted to a degree too) is when games are capable of going:
"Okay, so here's a big system for resolving something in a complicated way, lets socially game out the stress and social dynamics of you working through a queen's court to get to ask a favour,"
But also have good enough core mechanics that you can just do a normal D&D style one test roll for getting a favour from some shopkeep whose not important or heck, if you wanna take out a guard in the social bit it's just one combat roll, not a full combat.
I think that flexibility in depth so the GM can really emphasize what the current fiction is about is something to aim for in more complex systems.
+5
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Drascin Registered User regular
September 20 edited September 20
Maddoc wrote: »
Solar wrote: »
You literally cannot play a non combat DnD character and that is not how a lot of games do things
This basically gets to the heart of it I think, because D&D is fundamentally a combat system. It has skill checks bolted onto the side, but the primary way a player character interacts with the world is by altering somethings Hit Points. Usually lowering.
Every time talk goes to systems that could be jury rigged into D&D to facilitate styles of play that aren't primarily taking the pointy end of a sword and putting it into the soft bits of a goblin, my answer is invariably "There is a game that does what you're trying to do already"
A valid question, however, is checking whether it'll be easier to bolt systems into the combat system for talky bits, or bolting a system for fighting into the system that does the talky thing better.
Because, like, people will still probably want to fight things. A lot of Fantasy as a genre will involve having to hit some guys with a sword every now and then. So it's a valid question in which direction you want to do the bolting.
(And the other question is whether you actually want a system for your talky bits. Because my experience with talky bit systems has not, historically, been great. Worst being of course Exalted, with its social system being so well thought out that most players I've played with, myself included, genuinely considered NPCs trying to kill them with surfboard sized swords to be less violent and less meriting of an overwhelming lethal response than NPCs attempting to use the social system on them. We basically went back to basic ability rolls for this stuff. But in general I've found that I don't really want too indepth systems for talking, so that's a me thing)
Drascin on
Steam ID: Right here.
+4
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Quetzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User, Moderator mod
September 20
Whatever game you're pulling stuff from to bolt onto D&D probably already has its own combat rules, rules which were measured and considered in the context of the game and would much better suit that game. That's part of the point there.
+1
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Albino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
September 20
To be fair, a system of courtly and corporate back deals, agent deployment and social conduct where the rules for "What if I just want to punch or duel the infuriating fucking other party???" were just "establish stakes, flip a coin, live with it," would be exceedingly funny as a way of enforcing decorum.
+6
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Halos Nach Tariff Can you blame me? I'm too famous.Registered User regular
September 20
I always think of how D&D has so many spells/abilities that are just various types of 'attack something with fire,' or similar, pages and pages of spell lists, but then everything else is kinda just lumped under broad skill checks. But I'm only reiterating the same point as everyone else, I suppose.
Anyway, we're closing in on a full year of me GMing Eidolon: Become Your Best Self, which has been a lot of fun! (Though we only meet every two weeks, so it's not actually that many sessions). I was pretty apprehensive, I'm not a natural GM and none of my players were really familiar with this style of game or it's direct influences before starting play, but everybody seems to be enjoying themselves, even if I'm constantly fretting over the usual GM anxieties.
We've got a small town with a mysterious past, shadowy government operatives, magic mobsters, Things from beyond the veil, I get to make up a parade of weirdos to throw at the PCs, what more could you ask for?+5
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Cruor Registered User regular
September 20 edited September 20
Overall I think the solution is something like Lancer or ICON. One system for all of your social stuff and then when it's time to lock in and engage in violence you toss all that wordy nerd shit aside and pull out the nerdier grids and highly specific combat abilities.
Cruor on
+1
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Albino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
September 20
Actually Lancer is basically the poster child for "this is just a combat system with dice rolls on top,"
+6
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Maddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
September 20 edited September 20
Albino Bunny wrote: »
Actually Lancer is basically the poster child for "this is just a combat system with dice rolls on top,"
Lancer only begrudgingly admits that there is any mechanical gameplay outside of combat
I do actually think the best way to play Lancer is to literally use a different system for anything that happens outside your mech
Maddoc on
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Skeith Registered User regular
September 20
Rhesus Positive wrote: »
One of my players is half-seriously considering that the murder is a Reverse Vampire after some dodgy knowledge rolls, and is asking the townsfolk if they've seen one
So now some confused peasants are imagining a monster who only comes out in the day and spits blood at you before turning into a great auk and running away
And everybody knows that Faeries draw power from belief...
I love when knowledge checks go sideways and the DM has fun with it
I also love rolling high on survival or arcana or whatever, hearing my DM sigh, and getting a screenshot of the monster's stats direct in discord
![[Tabletop Games] The White Throne of Midnight Regrets - Page 10 (38)](data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAAAAACH5BAEKAAEALAAAAAABAAEAAAICTAEAOw== "[Tabletop Games] The White Throne of Midnight Regrets - Page 10 (38)")
+2
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Solar Registered User regular
September 20
Albino Bunny wrote: »
Solar wrote: »
I'd say that the purpose of objective based social interaction isn't to deal hit points of social damage so I can defeat them without stabbing them. It's to get them to do stuff or see things in line with what I want
I don't want to KO the prince with social damage I want to persuade him that the chief minister is a traitor and for him to believe me because his sister, who he trusts, vouches for me. That's not social combat. Its game-able. But it's not combat.
Something I actually like in Infinity (and Exalted to a degree too) is when games are capable of going:
"Okay, so here's a big system for resolving something in a complicated way, lets socially game out the stress and social dynamics of you working through a queen's court to get to ask a favour,"
But also have good enough core mechanics that you can just do a normal D&D style one test roll for getting a favour from some shopkeep whose not important or heck, if you wanna take out a guard in the social bit it's just one combat roll, not a full combat.
I think that flexibility in depth so the GM can really emphasize what the current fiction is about is something to aim for in more complex systems.
Yeah in Infinity you don't need to do the whole social combat thing to take a quick persuade test to get the bouncer to let you into the VIP area but then you can for your sit down with the crime boss
Ex3 has the best social system of any game I've ever played so it is a cut above imo. Playing a purely social character in that game is so viable and fun.
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Speed Racer Scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratchRegistered User regular
September 20
To me I don't necessarily want a ton of rules and systems dictating social interactions, unless it's some kind of formal setting like a court trial or a negotiating table or something
What I want are systems and rules that spark player imagination to try things, and to give the GM some guidance and guard rails for how to respond to what the players want to do
Social stuff should largely be happening on the RP layer, but I want rules and systems that help to fertilize and water that soil
+12
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Duke 2.0 Time Trash Cat Registered User regular
September 20 edited September 21
The sharp split between Lancer's combat and literally anything else systems feels appropriate. As a person you have loose vague possibilities to talk with people and create things and physically move your body, but mounted on a war machine you have a complex and rigid list of mechanics that strip your ability to do any of those earlier things. You are trading in your humanity to become better at fighting.
I do desire a mech system that's a little closer to Eclipse Phase where your base core pilot stats slot into a shell of extra stats representing a mech and having in-cockpit actions to do things like handling the stresses on your human body, working a complex console of a specialized auxiliary system, and breaking out a clipboard and compass to work out some complex calculations. It would chase a different vibe.
Duke 2.0 on
+1
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Centipede Damascus Registered User regular
September 20
Straightzi wrote: »
D&D also has effectively no mechanical model for harm other than being physically injured, which I think is notable.
Like, if a player fucks up a social roll or fails to pick a lock, I can give them social consequences, but that's all RP. At a certain point that needs to be backed up by violence, as that's the only mechanical communication.
Well, there is Exhaustion, which is I think an underused mechanic. Although it's not a social thing, admittedly, but if you for instance have your players try to ford a river and take a level of exhaustion if they fail, that's a good way to "harm" their characters without just deducting a number of hit points.
+3
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